Thursday, November 09, 2006

18 minute matza Minyan

This morning I had the lovely pleasure of deafening in the Minoan which is known as the mat's Minoan or the someone escrow Minoan because on a regular weekday they take 18 minutes to complete seashores. Today because it is Thursday took a few minutes longer because of the Tasmania and Torah readings. One might ask why would I go to such a Minoan if I knew how the davening was going to be. This morning I attended a bris which was in a different neighborhood which would take some time for me to get to. I was going to meet someone who was going to give me a ride their. Because I was not going to make to Shacharis there I davened at a quick minyan before hoping that I would get to the bris on time and just finish my davening there. It turns out that I made it just as they finished the bris and everyone was going down to the Seudah. At the minyan I was able to say Berachos, Baruch Sheamar and yishtabach then everything through tachanun then Aleinu. All of that took me at least twenty minutes while everyone else was finished. Is it me or is this rediculous? Not only that, there were people talking the whole time and people who left early. To those people i ask, whats the point of even going to shul if your not davening? I would love to see what other people think about this minyan. Do minyans like this happen in your neighborhoods?

21 comments:

socialworker/frustrated mom said...

I wouldn't know cute name for the post.

Anonymous said...

Do you ever have anything possitive to say? How about at least they come to shul every morning? Maybe the don't know better, because that's how they saw their father daven? Maybe everyone was in a rush to et to a bris to? If davening is so important to you, as you keep saying when you question everyone else, maybe you sould have davened at a "normal" minyan and not gone to the bris. Or take a car service to the bris to be on time for davening. I think you have to explain how you were allowed to daven with such a minyan (which in essense you davened b'yichidus. (If you didn't daven shmoneh esrei with the tzibur or minimally with the shatz you didn't dave with a minyan) Why is not davening with a "proper" minyan allowed? Are you allowed to not daven properly just to go to a bris? I would think not.

FrumWithQuestions said...

Anonymous- I do have positive things to say but when thigs are clear problems I cannot see any positive things. I would have gone to a different minyan but I was meeting someone there to get a ride to a bris. I could not take a car service because the bris was far away and I cannot afford it. The problem is that the shul endorses this minyan and the same people go everyday. If I am in a rush I will go to a regular minyan and leave early and finish everything after. This minyan is at an exclusive time and there is nothing before. The one minyan that is before is a problem because of the zman of the tefillah and tallis and tefillin. I also was planning on davening the rest of the time at the bris but due to things not in my control i did not make it at that time. I went to this minyan hoping I would be able to daven with the minyan but the pace was beyond fast and i can't believe everything was actually said. By going to this minyan i was able to answer Yehya Smay Rabah as well as hearing the Torah reading. According to many chassidic and kabbalistic sources it is better to go to a minyan and daven at your own pace saying everything in the proper seder than rushing through everything just to keep up with everyone and skipping things to go back later.

rescue said...

(same anon from above) If you can't dave properly don't go to the bris. Halacha says to skip davening in order to say shmoneh esrei with the tzibut. I you follow all chasidic customs than rely on your reference above, I don't know how you can pick and choose your chassidic mannerisms. All I see from your posts are compaints on how people don't do things the way YOU think they should be done. Are you so 100% with everything you do, to start spreading loshon horah about jews. If you were so 100% then you would have found an alternative proper place to daven this morning. How about changing the post to say mi k'amcha yisroel. There are people who are so fluid in hebrew that they can daven fast, or what a great zchus the shul has that it can put a minyan together for the people who are in a rush. I think you should change your blog title to be frum with tia'nas.

FrumWithQuestions said...

Rescue- What you are quoting is in Mishna Berurah which I questioned when i learned it. I am not a RAv but if you compare the speed of davening which was in Europe where Mishna Berurah was written, to the speed of the davening in America I don't think the Chofetz Chaim would have paskined that way. Even if you are fluent in Hebrew it is impossible to daven that fast. I am fluent in English and I cannot read everything from Shacharis with the Kaddishes and repitition of Shemona Esrei in 18 minutes. I am not being negative espeicially since there are Rabonim who condemn this minyan. I needed to go to this bris since it was a family member and I was the only one available to go. I could not commute there without getting a ride and this was the only way. The fact that then people in this minyan did not say everything is verified by the fact that the people there were talking the whole time and even left early. I don't pick and choose my chassidic mannerisms I actually try and follow everything from that perspective. The only reason why I might do thing not in that way is because the Rabbanim around me are not chassidic and If i ask them a question I have to go by what they say. By adressing questions I am not speaking loshon horah. Take it as mussar to try and change things so people do things properly. Unfortunately in America this is going to be impossible. If you want to know why you feel my posts are so negative read my first post. I became involved in the frum community after growing up conservative and the way orthodox rabbis teach is not how the porthodox community acts which is why i have all these questions.

Lvnsm27 said...

I guess after a while, people get bored and just do it quickly.
A good idea for them and others would be to somehow rekindle that inspiration and kavanah.

Btw, I did leave a comment a while ago. check oct 30 when you did a survey

FrumWithQuestions said...

lvnsm27- I have a really bad memory and I did read your comment from my Halloween survey. I don't think this minyan is about kavana. I think it is a social thing nad people don't really have a desire to connect to Hashem.

Lvnsm27 said...

That's probably it. If they had more desire, they would put more into their davening instead of just quickly saying it.

chaverah said...

just a quick point, I do give credit that people ahow up for minyiun. I dont judge how people daven, but at least they try.

FrumWithQuestions said...

Chaverah- Can you give credit even if a person is going to socialize and not daven? This effects everyone in the minyan especially when zooming through.

rescue said...

If they wouldn't come, you would say how come nobody shows up for davening. No matter what anybody does, if it isn't the way you think it should be done, you have a problem. I give them credit for just not being you.

FrumWithQuestions said...

Rescue- I have said before I would have no problem if people stayed home. They would be better off then destroying other peoples davening by coming to shul and disturbing people by talking and being disrespectful by rushing through davening. There have been times that i have stayed home and davened and had better kavana then if I would have gone to another minyan. It is rare that I don't go to a minyan but when I do I try and avoid all of the minyans that there is talking and rushing because i just don't see the point of going to shul at all if it is going to be disrespectful. My wifes zaide times people to see if they are davening too quickly and I know many people who think it is rediculous. I guess people now are dissensitised to what it means to go to shul and daven properly.

chaverah said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
chaverah said...

I think people go during the week, for the most part, with good intensions to daven. Unfortunatly we are all on different madreigas and that is where it can be a problem. You should go to a place where you feel more comfartable

FrumWithQuestions said...

Chaverah- For the neighborhood I live in and the time slot that I need to go to minyan, the one I go to is quiet even though it is quick. When i say it is quick, compared to the other ones in the neighborhood it is slow. I wonder if the pace of davening is this fast outside of New York, especially in Israel

chaverah said...

I hear you. I could see how it could be frustrating. I still believe that people have good intentions and just deal with this situation the best you can.

Anonymous said...

I actually go to a minyan that lots of people shun.
The baal tefila (a chiyuv) davens slow, takes nearly 1 hour on mondays and thursdays.
I like it.
If I have the time, which almost always I do.

FrumWithQuestions said...

Thats interesting. Where do you live? The unfortunate thing is that the slower minyans are usually the late minyans which are non-working people. What I don't understand is why can't davening start a little earlier instead of rushing. I asked the Rav of the minyan i go to on shabbos about this because the issue comes up with zman for shma during the winter. He inferred that its better to have a set time all year round for davening than to change the time. I think you should change the time becuase rushing is disrespectful and even if you don't rush, I am of the belief that Hashem does not have a stop watch and the second a zman hits the end is hear. We don't have exact zmanim now anyway and Reb Moshe even said this in one of his Tshuvas I learned and he gives a 10 minute leeway in certain circumstnaces.

Anonymous said...

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Ideas, musings, and catharsis on topics of interest to Orthodox Jews. I welcome those who love being observant and those who do not. With me, it's day to day; although I am here to stay. My view is that the Torah is true but it's truth and place in our lives is not easily known. We need a dialogue. So here we discuss Modern Orthodox Judaism, Charedi Judaism, and sacred cows of all sorts.

Anonymous said...

I live in Boro Park NY,
there is a very varied selection of shuls in my neighborhood. I know the schedules of say, half a dozen shul around my morning route so I can choose a 1 hour davining or a 'oops I'm in a rush-30 minute job'.
A rav I once heard a lecture of said there is no excuse for the quickies except for the very first hashkoma minyan, because every other minyan should and can start 15 minutes earlier!

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