Thursday, October 26, 2006

At minyan this morning

I wanted to relate the following incident which happened this morning when I went to minyan and see what my readers opinion is of the matter.

In the minyan I went to this morning, the room is relatively small as is set up with pews with not much space between them. I was sitting in the middle of two people. The person on my left was an old man and the person on my right was a young man who came late and was right next to the shtender as well as being in the aisle. At the end of the Shemona Esrei during the long tachanun prayers they asked the old man next to me to have pesicha and taking the Torah out of the Aron. This man on my left wanted to proceed to the Aron but he could not get through because the guy sitting next to me on the right was still reciting Shemona Esrei as the minyan was ready to take the Torah out to be read. The old man said out loud this is a pain in the ass while he was trying to get by which he couldn't because the pews are too close together and this other guy was still davening Shemona Esrei. Now my question is, who is right in this situation? Is it the old man who came to shul on time who got frustrated with the guy next to me or is it the young guy who was trying to recite Shemona Esrei without being disturbed?

In my opinion they were both wrong. The old man should not have gotten frustrated so quickly and say the word ass in a Beis Midrash. The young man should have had some consideration for the people around him. He came late and was not davening Shemona Esrei with the minyan and he was blocking the path of others. He should have realized this and started his Shemona Esrei in a spot where people could still get by. I am curious to hear how other people will interpret this situation.

12 comments:

socialworker/frustrated mom said...

This isn't so deep I think it is both their faults simple as that so I agree with you. I work with the elderly and have more rachmunus on them. I wouldn't blame the old guy so much. You never know maybe he has Dementia or who knows what.

FrumWithQuestions said...

SWFM- What does dementia have to do with saying ass in a Beis Midrash? It didn' appear that there was anything wrong with him except that he didn't have any patience.

socialworker/frustrated mom said...

I meant in case there was something wrong with him, just giving you an example of what it might be. I guess just being dan lekaf zechus. If there was nothing wrong then they seem to both be at fault. As I said I just have more pity for old fogies because I work with them.

the only way i know said...

i interpret it as you have..

Neil Harris said...

I think the old man only got upset b/c of where the younger guy was davening. This is exactly why I try to daven Shemoneh Esrai in the back of a shul! Great post, hope you're finding answers!

FrumWithQuestions said...

Neil- How can you get upset if someone is davening infront of the place where they were sitting? When a shul has pews that are close together it is hard enough to get in when no one is there. He just had the aisle seat so if he was in the way you could not get by.

I don't want to sound holier than though but it is a halacha that when you go to shul you are not supposed to stand by the door in the back becuase it looks like you are going in to shul to leave as quickly as possible. I try to sit in the front when possible. I believe like when you go to a Broadway show or a baseball game or any other place you want to be in the front so to when you daven you should want a front row seat when you are communicating with Hashem.

kasamba said...

I think it's just one of those situations that just tries the patience of all concerned. Old guy had every right to get frustrated and guy still davening must have felt frustrated that he had to rush his tefillos.

Jessica said...

oy, my instinct is that the old guy's frustration and saying "ass" when he's in shul - and about to go up to the Torah, even - is an extremely out of line reaction to the guy's somewhat inconsiderate choice of place to daven. while the younger guy may have not have even thought he'd end up blocking someone's way, there really isn't an excuse for a bad-tempered response in that situation.

Anonymous said...

What if he didnt come in late. What if he was just a slow davener? (I say that because I am-especially for Tachnun) the old man was definately rude, but I tend to give older people a little more leeway because they have earned it. but on the other hand they were DAVENING! If there is anytime people should be nice to each other is when davening. Kind of like Eddy Haskel from Leave it to Beaver. Only you are not trying to Impress Wally's Mom, you are trying to Impress G-d. there is no better time to show respect for your fellow yid.

FrumWithQuestions said...

Yid With Lid- Thanks for visiting. Unfortunately the guy did come late and i know this because he was sitting next to me and he showed up in the middle of davening.

Jessica- You seem to agree with me.

Kasamba- It didn't look like he rushed after this guy said that stuff because he still took a lot longer and sometimes if you have enough kavana you don't notice whats going on around you.

D'varim P'shutim said...

There is no question that the older man was out of line. But I belive that the younger man is at fault. Our 'frumkeit' cannot come at the expense of others. If you come late or want to daven a long shmona esrei 'kol hakavod', but do it in a place where you will not be inconveniencing others!

FrumWithQuestions said...

Well said D'varim P'shutim